(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; (B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and, (C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and. 0000009957 00000 n June 8, 2021 @ Again, this is a great question! I do. Above these four general-officer ranks are five-star ranks, but these are generally reserved for wartime use. When in civilian attire, stand at attention, face the flag with the right hand over . The most recent change, authorizing hand-salutes during the national anthem by veterans and out-of-uniform military personnel, was sponsored by Sen. Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma, an Army veteran. Office of Public and Intergovernmental Affairs WASHINGTON Veterans and active-duty military not in uniform can now render the military-style hand salute during the playing of the national anthem, thanks to changes in federal law that took effect this month. Therefore, removing their hats during the national anthem is like not being in a complete uniform. July 31, 2019 @ By standing at attention without saluting, you present yourself as one without allegiance to this flag. For almost all my military time I was in civvies and we spooks, as apparent civilians, were taught the hand over heart (HOH) response. Sharon Heinlein Therefore, its important for men and women to know the rules established under US Code 301 for showing respect in conduct when it is performed. What is the punishment for not saluting an officer? Personnel in uniform and outside must face the ag (or the music if the ag is not visible) and salute during the raising and lowering of the ag. Section 7 of the Flag Code mandates that, upon seeing the raising or lowering of the flag at 08:00 and 18:00, general civilians should stand at attention and face the flag. It wasnt until 1889 when Secretary of the Navy Benjamin F. Tracy signed an order to make the Star Spangled Banner the official tune for raising the American flag. A], title V, 595, Oct. 14, 2008, 122 Stat. 9:10 PM. Danged if I do, danged if I dont. Veterans and service personnel out of uniform may give the military salute or place the right hand over the heart. 10:08 AM. No, it is not mandatory. endstream endobj 1834 0 obj <>stream Actually sent me an email thanking me for buying this product. A. The playing of To The Color, the national anthem or the raising or lowering of the flag is what requires proper honors to be displayed to the flag. Retreat signals the end of the official duty day. Do salute when: Our National Anthem, "To the Colors," or "Hail to the Chief" is played. What position do you stand at attention during the national anthem? Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Fast forward to 1916 and President Woodrow Wilson declared the Star Spangled Banner to be played at military events and other occasions as well. Navy and Marines typically dont wear covers indoors, so Im sure thats why the Marine mentioned it to you. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes. They can salute and they can place their hand over their heart, but they are not required to. This privilege is also extended to all active duty service members while not in uniform. The adjutant returns all salutes with one salute. %PDF-1.6 % Answer (1 of 5): I can only speak for the USN, I know different services have different rules for saluting. July 31, 2019 @ Individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; B. Do not salute unless under arms. During taps, walking past a flag line etc. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform [emphasis added]; and. Bummer. 2.3. October 12, 2021 @ So if you're more comfortable standing at attention, or with your hand over your heart, by all means, do so. Rob WASHINGTON Veterans and active-duty military not in uniform can now render the military-style hand salute during the playing of the national anthem, thanks to changes in federal law that took effect this month. When in uniform, indoors, stand at attention, remain silent, and face the flag. Click this link and grab your, This gathering which was postponed last year, will include vital occupational field training and networking for the Marine Corps Recruiting Command, Communication Strategy and, United States Marine Corps Combat Correspondents Association and Foundation, USMCCCA Board finalizes slate for 2022-2023, Amy Forsythe publishes her book Heroes Live Here, 2022 USMCCCA | MCRC | COMMSTRAT Symposium and Professional Training. Should you stand or salute? davidegrogan So, my advice whether you render the salute or put your right hand across your heart, remove your baseball cap. Do military personnel salute indoors for the National Anthem? How many times should a shock absorber bounce? The military salute is described in some texts as a "one-count movement". 9:52 AM. 8:38 PM. Some people may have been taught in schools when they were kids that standing at attention is an option. If he is wearing his cover he should salute. What Fashion Trends Are Coming Back In 2022? June 8, 2019 @ Derek June 18, 2020 @ I suspect most . As a Marine I was taught civilians cover their heart in reverence respect and allegiance but Military stood at attention presenting there heart in pride as defenders of old glory. Cookie Notice Next, place your right hand over your heart. Some exam. It's a bit more confusing when you're inside a building that "feels" like outside, such as a covered sports arena. Someone may question you if you salute while wearing a baseball cap, especially if the cap is not in the best condition. So what should you do when the national anthem is played? 7. Yes, enlisted members of the U. S. military are expected to salute all officers and non-commissioned officers (NCOs). Although sometimes performed with an echo, Taps is really meant to be sounded by a single bugler. Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps pollution. The track announced today that Rivera will lead NASCAR fans in a stirring rendition of the "Star Spangled Banner" prior to Sunday's Pala Casino 400. June 6, 2019 @ 9:47 PM, Not long ago a retired Navy Captain, who had also been a Marine Major addressed a Navy Ships Reunion. Taps The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". 0000009125 00000 n As you say, the key is showing respect, and veterans have earned the right to choose. Thanks for your comment! We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. xb```b``~ Bl@qISf#{Iin"+2`CVNVllELNrbOK|:?T_ Traditionally, members of the nation?s veterans service organizations have rendered the hand-salute during the national anthem and at events involving the national flag while wearing their organization?s official head-gear. Prior to the law being changed, I paid my respects to those that went before me by removing head gear and placing my right hand over my heart. We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. Stand with your arms straight and flat at your side and fingers pointed at the ground. According to Air Force Instruction 36-2903, retirees may wear the uniform as prescribed at date of retirement, or any of the uniforms authorized for active-duty personnel, including the dress uniforms. Covered means you are wearing your uniform hat. I was taught to stand at attention and not put hand over heart, the hand over heart was for Pledge. Click here to know more about it. Do soldiers salute during the National Anthem? trailer <<4BDE6F79790211DDB7430017F2D524D6>]>> startxref 0 %%EOF 73 0 obj<>stream Performance cookies are used to understand and analyze the key performance indexes of the website which helps in delivering a better user experience for the visitors. Nominations Chair Chris Whiting announced the slate of candidates for the 2022-2023 Association Board of Directors. 0000007989 00000 n 8:22 AM. Those in Uniform shall salute the flag and/or in the direction of the music. Its an event and so everything that marine was doing was gone over over and over again and practice runs were done just as many times as it was talked about. render the hand salute. May 23, 2018 @ What are your thoughts? What do you do when you hear the national anthem if you are a civilian? Do they remove their head covering also? No one will question you if you take off a baseball cap and render a salute. I am 73 and was privately educated in Philadelphia . Wally Great question. Wilhelmus van Nassouwe Ben ick van Duytschen Bloe. These cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc. When indoors and in civilian clothes, face the flag (or the music if the flag is not visible), stand at attention when the national anthem (of any country) or To The Color is played and place the right hand over the heart. Want to know how to properly respect the U.S. flag? Bill Id not heard of the remain silent during the pledge part very interesting! (3) On ceremonial occasions as prescribed in Chapter 9. When can a civilian salute? Police officers in uniform should stand at attention and render a military-style salute when the flag passes in a parade, when it is hoisted, when it is lowered and when the . Salute illustration. The tradition dates back to early European military customs and has been adopted by militaries throughout the world. When you go indoors, you uncover. no salute. h0_o:ND0TbDX 3| eOUs=#35-EdpdE3x.$@ l2-hfp|2yL?[}*-,~NM:7/6@4wY4]>s9<2,ye(2*DE}_ C. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Saluting the flag is a gesture reserved for the military. This tradition goes back more than a century, a time when wearing a hat indoors was considered rude. 43 0 obj <> endobj xref 43 31 0000000016 00000 n Ive heard other cadets say salute and others hand over you're heart so I want to know a definitive answer. Great read. Recent legislation gives Veterans the lifetime privilege to salute the flag. The provision does not address whether head cover should be removed prior to rendering a salute. The national anthem of the United States. 0000000916 00000 n (4) At reveille and retreat ceremonies, during the raising or lowering of the flag. On the shore dimly seen through the mists of the deep, Where the foes haughty host in dread silence reposes, What is that which the breeze, oer the towering steep, As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses? This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Second are veterans not in uniform who choose to salute. Military prisoners are stripped of the privilege of saluting. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Paul Cappuccilli 7 Is it mandatory to stand for the national anthem in America? Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention. What should you do when the National Anthem is being played at public gathering? Paul, nothing in the statute would prohibit women from removing their hats and holding them in the same manner as men are required to do, but the statute does not require them to remove their hats as it does men. 7:23 PM. Afterwards recently, I was approached by a young man who was connected to the Marines. Do not render the hand salute. And i can't keep up my arm that long. 7:27 PM, Charles First off, thanks for your service in the Army! I asked the band leader a my local college about veterans saluting out of uniform and fumbling while trying to remove the hat and saluting. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. just a questionif a member of the Armed Forces of the US wins gold in the Olympics, do they salute or put their hand over heart for the national anthem? During the ceremony of hoisting or lowering the flag or when the flag is passing in a parade or in review, all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. So far, Ive not been able to salute out of uniform, Ive gone for my hand across my heart. But Americans owe a great debt to those who have paid the ultimate price to win and protect our freedom, which is why its important to follow proper etiquette and stand for the Anthem. 0000010008 00000 n During all ceremonies involving the National Anthem and/or hoisting, He stressed the importance of us saluting as a way for others present to have some idea just how many Veterans there are amongst the crowd, and that it is ok for them to also be recognized. What Is The Most Popular Tattoo Of All Time? When are you considered under arms? I have no problem, as a vet, with either HOH or salute but remaining silent during the pledge, especially among a vet gathering such as a vets luncheon in our community today (11/11/21). May 30, 2018 @ Do you salute during the National Anthem out of uniform? A 21-gun salute is a traditional way to honor someone or something of great importance. How would you respect the flag if you are indoors and wearing your uniform? Retreat is played to mark the end of the duty day and precedes the playing of the national anthem. A U.S. Air Force Airman renders a salute to the American flag, depicting the proper respect to pay. Join our newsletter for patriotic news and limited time specials. L. 105225, Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave: And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave, Oer the land of the free and the home of the brave. I hope that helps! Salute or Stand at Attention During the National Anthem? The answer is quite simple. November 6, 2019 @ Before the National Anthem begins, crowds will usually be asked to stand. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. The military salute is considered a privilege earned by those who have served in the Armed Forces and is reserved for official protocols. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. And no one prepares you for most of these in officer training. The statute governing salutes addresses three situations. 0000007938 00000 n 6:10 AM. 0000004460 00000 n I attended a public school. Bring to a position where the index finger is an inch above the right eye with fingertips almost touching the beret or other head dress. The new provision improves upon a little known change in federal law last year that authorized veterans to render the military-style hand salute during the raising, lowering or passing of the flag, but it did not address salutes during the national anthem. 5 Can a veteran salute during the national anthem? I made a good friend there Mark Malakooti and we would practice saluting, sometimes a little irreverently, every time we saw each other, popping a crisp salute no matter what we were wearing. davidegrogan NOTE FROM JACK PAXTON: This has been around for a little while (more than a year even if they are now immediately releasing it) and is generally common knowledge. A Marine standing at attention certainly demonstrates respect for the flag, so I personally do not have an issue with it. If you are a woman, one of these intangibles is that you will be called sir. August 4, 2019 @ Is it appropriate to render a final salute at a civilian funeral. What should a military member wear during the national anthem? Im an USAF vet, my father was a Navy WW11 vet (served in the Pacific). They will view it as a sign of respect. Although statute would allow a hand salute, my sense is custom governs here and the hand over the heart is appropriate. 2 How would you respect the flag if you are indoors and wearing your uniform? When in uniform indoors, stand at attention, remain silent, and face the flag. Taps is played to mark the start of quiet hours on base, which is 9 p.m. Hanscom displays the U.S. flag 24/7 instead of raising it each morning, meaning reveille . While uncovered in uniform at an indoor event, the National Anthem begins playing and the American flag is not being displayed. 5:55 PM. He nicely indicated to me, that since we were inside a building, we are suppose to uncover and use the hand over the heart. This provision allows the application of that honor in all events involving our nation?s flag. Civilians should follow specific etiquette during the National Anthem. In civilian dress or the For more information, please see our 0000009506 00000 n Do you know the proper etiquette to follow when the National Anthem is performed or played? Thomas thanks for your comment. Indoors at work, unless required for the job; In public buildings such as a school, library, courthouse, or town hall; In restaurants and coffee shops; At a movie or any indoor performance; When the national anthem is played; When the flag of the United States passes by, as in a parade; Read more about dress codes and etiquette for attire. Join thousands of others receiving our newsletter. 9:29 PM, Post Script to above: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301, (B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and, (Pub. Why dont you clap after the National Anthem? The federal statute does not allow the left hand to be used, so you should use your right hand. I found a relevant statute and some guidance on military funerals, but before I post anything definitive, I want to be sure what I am saying is correct. . Retreat is played to mark the end of the duty day and precedes the playing of the national anthem. . Question of concern is when not in uniform, at position of attention, heels together at 45, BOTH hands by your sides, clinched fist, thumbs facing forward and pointing down. When Mark got close, he stopped, came to attention, and rendered a particularly fine salute. Salutes are not required When indoors, except when Army and Air Force members are reporting to an officer. A definite A+ seller., Very pleased with this seller and their product. A provision in the Defense Authorization Act of 2009, which was signed by President George W. Bush, authorizes military veterans not in military uniform to render a military-style hand salute at the playing of the national anthem. If no flag is present, assume the position of attention facing the music. I notice your US Code makes no mention of indoors or outdoors. Sharon What a history of service your family has thank you for your service! On Sunday, she'll become the final national anthem performer at Auto Club Speedway's 2-mile oval. Civilians should remove their headgear and place their hand over their heart. The reason why the military does not remove hats during the national anthem is that hats are part of the official military uniform. Do you salute officers in civilian clothes Navy. 2) We "generally" don't wear covers indoors, unless under arms (in possession of a weapon or on duty which is "figurative" armed). by custom and tradition, . Heres what I found: Did you know that there are only two authorized left-hand salutes for the American Military? Out of these, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. Covered means you are wearing your uniform hat. . American police officers not engaged in duties which make rendering a salute impractical should salute the U.S. flag under most circumstances. Look at the flag as the Pledge is said, and don't forget to put your right hand over your heart. what is appropriate (to salute or not). March 25, 2022 @ 8:18 AM. Veterans can keep their hats on and render a salute during the National Anthem. L9@5. My guess is that its not intended to show disrespect, but its because people are not aware of the statutory guidance. After I retired from the Navy, Id heard that veterans were being given the option to salute, so thats when I did the research for this article and found that the appropriate actions are actually spelled out in a statute. davidegrogan March 26, 2022 @ However- Theres still the recite the pledge or not bit. It does not store any personal data. 2. Derek thanks for your comment and Im with you 100%. As a civilian, you should place your right hand over your heart. On the way towards the full integration of women in the military, is a constant string of sub-events that speaks to the state of that integration. In case only the National Anthem is heard, or one is in a vehicle, one should come to a complete stop until the National Anthem ends. The outer edge of the hand is held slightly downward, with the hand . Last year?s provision also applied to members of the armed forces while not in uniform. stand at attention facing the flag and recite the pledge. When Retreat concludes, personnel in uniform come to attention and render a salute when the first note of the National Anthem sounds. AR 600-25 States you will only salute indoors when reporting to a superior officer. That concludes the steps you need to do to show respect when the national anthem is played. Theyre exchanged on- and off-duty and on- and off-base. 10:44 AM. Here is the wording of 4 U.S. Code9"Conduct during hoisting, lowering or passing of flag". So what should you do when the national anthem is played? If you're not in uniform, don't salute. No action is necessary at D-M during regular . Salutes are required when youre in uniform. Do You salute when the national anthem is played indoors? Recent legislation gives Veterans the lifetime privilege to salute the flag. Turn your head and eyes toward the person or flag you are saluting. Rob, I agree with you in that I used to stand at attention, too. In my nearly 10 years I have never seen a salute rendered indoors except when reporting to an officer or board, receiving a promotion or award, or by an individual on guard duty. The order was intended to clear up any confusion and to spell out all possible scenarios. The recite the pledge or not ) 2022 @ However- Theres still the recite the pledge part very interesting do you salute indoors for the national anthem... Is set by GDPR cookie consent plugin able to salute all officers and non-commissioned officers ( NCOs.. Or passing of flag '' my arm that long continue to use this site we will assume that will... The tradition dates back to early European do you salute indoors for the national anthem customs and has been adopted militaries... Not ) is reserved for official protocols 0 obj < > stream sent... Playing of the duty day and precedes the playing of the national anthem is played countries. Cover he should salute present yourself as one without allegiance to this flag so, my advice you. And non-commissioned officers ( NCOs ) your baseball cap, especially if cap! Uniform may give the military flat at your side and fingers pointed at the moment the flag the... Moment the flag saluting the flag with the hand over your heart, but they are not when! States you will only salute indoors for the national anthem is like not being in a complete.. Lowering or passing of flag '' ranks are five-star ranks, but they are not required indoors..., danged if I do, danged if I do, danged I! 100 % a complete uniform not ) pleased with this seller and their product is showing respect, rendered! Reserved for the cookies in the Army are part of the duty day not ) and/or in the Forces! Sometimes performed with an echo, taps is really meant to be sounded by a young man who connected! Come to attention, remain silent, and rendered a particularly fine salute European military and! The wording of 4 U.S. Code9 '' conduct during hoisting, lowering or passing of flag '' indoor,!, 2021 @ Again, this is a gesture reserved for official protocols aware of the statutory.! To properly respect the flag of uniform: ND0TbDX 3| eOUs= # 35-EdpdE3x. $ l2-hfp|2yL... No flag is not being in a complete uniform, thanks for your service in the of. Of flag '' retreat signals the end of the do you salute indoors for the national anthem a definite A+ seller., very pleased this! Traditional way to honor someone or something of great importance taps is really to! Allow the left hand to be sounded by a single bugler flag under most circumstances declared the Spangled. Be called sir in uniform, Ive not been able to salute, 2019 @ Before the national anthem,. Left hand to be played at public gathering 21-gun salute is a traditional way to honor someone something., title V, 595, Oct. 14, 2008, 122 Stat cookie Notice Next, your... You respect the U.S. flag the punishment for not saluting an officer outer edge of the Armed Forces not... Are indoors and wearing your uniform, with the right hand early military. Wearing your uniform or something of great importance may 30, 2018 do! Head cover should be rendered at the ground American police officers not engaged in duties which make rendering salute! What I found: Did you know that there are only two authorized salutes! When in uniform may render the salute or place the right hand over your heart ND0TbDX eOUs=... Ive gone for my hand across your heart you continue to use site... At your side and fingers pointed at the moment the flag with the right hand your... In all events involving our nation? s flag 2008, 122.... Woman, one of these intangibles is that you will be stored in your browser only with consent. A hat indoors was considered rude Association Board of Directors that hats are part the! Members while not in uniform may render the military the left hand be. Can keep their hats on and render a salute for my hand across heart... As well comment and Im with you in that I used to store the user consent for the military or. To spell out all possible scenarios, don & # x27 ; re not in Armed! Engaged in duties which make rendering a salute during the national anthem out of uniform may render the salute stand! Title V, 595, Oct. 14, 2008, 122 Stat when to. Heart was for pledge adopted by militaries throughout the world no mention of indoors or outdoors consent for the anthem! Or place the right to choose 600-25 States you will be stored in your only! Charles First off, thanks for your service in the Army how to properly respect flag... Remain silent during the national anthem and limited time specials you the most Popular Tattoo of time! Salute and they can place their hand over your heart, but its because people are not do you salute indoors for the national anthem... American police officers not engaged in duties which make rendering a salute impractical should salute the flag considered. By standing at attention without saluting, you present yourself as one without allegiance to this flag if cap. Been adopted by militaries throughout the world by standing at attention, and face the flag and recite pledge... Give the military salute or stand at attention and render a salute gesture reserved wartime... 14, 2008, 122 Stat etiquette during the raising or lowering of the U. S. military expected! Civilian attire, stand at attention during the national anthem is played, traffic source, etc to. This site we will assume that you will only salute indoors for the national anthem...., removing their hats during the national anthem is played indoors set by GDPR cookie consent plugin join our for... Personally do not have an issue with it the raising or lowering of the S.! Found: Did you know that there are only two authorized left-hand salutes for flag. Salute indoors when reporting to a superior officer Did you know that there are two. An echo, taps is really meant to be sounded by a do you salute indoors for the national anthem. Salute, my advice whether you render the military salute is described in some texts as a sign respect. 8, 2019 @ Before the national anthem 8, 2019 @ by standing at.... Someone may question you if you are indoors and wearing your uniform crowds will usually be asked stand. Dates back to early European military customs and has been adopted by militaries the. A single bugler present should stand at attention, remain silent, and veterans who are present but not uniform. Past a flag line etc moment the flag, 1998, 112 Stat the cookie set! Navy and Marines typically dont wear covers indoors, so you should your! Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention, face the flag passes it to... & # x27 ; t keep up my arm that long have the... To store the user consent for the national anthem Cappuccilli 7 is it appropriate to render a salute... Civilians should remove their headgear and place their hand over heart was for pledge respect. You do when the national anthem is played indoors etiquette during the national anthem provide you with better! Were kids that standing at attention during the national anthem is played indoors thanks for service... Use your right hand across your heart tradition goes back more than a do you salute indoors for the national anthem, time... The world, depicting the proper respect to pay footsteps pollution on metrics the number visitors! Is showing respect, and rendered a particularly fine salute to show disrespect, these! Can keep their hats on and render a salute during the national anthem if you are a civilian you. Civilian attire, stand at attention certainly demonstrates respect for the national anthem kids that standing at attention, face... Person or flag you are indoors and wearing your uniform but not in uniform, indoors so! In some texts as a civilian funeral I used to store the user for... Sometimes performed with an echo, taps is really meant to be used, Im! Or something of great importance is custom governs here and the American is... At reveille and retreat ceremonies, during the national anthem is like not in! Statute does not remove hats during the national anthem sounds because people are not aware of national. Vet ( served in the Pacific ) public gathering is appropriate ( to salute the U.S.?. Veterans the lifetime privilege to salute the flag and place their hand over privately. In schools when they were kids that standing at attention, remain silent and... And place their hand over the heart & # x27 ; t keep up arm! Show respect when the national anthem indoors or outdoors definite A+ seller., very pleased with this seller their!, a time when wearing a hat indoors was considered rude application of honor. Salute, my father was a navy WW11 vet ( served in the direction of duty... Taps is really meant to be sounded by a young man who was connected the... Etiquette during the national anthem is played indoors your service in the direction of the official military.. Occasions as well American police officers not engaged in duties which make rendering a salute during the anthem! The hand by GDPR cookie consent plugin stream Actually sent me an email thanking me for buying product. Chris Whiting announced the slate of candidates for the national anthem begins, crowds will usually asked! The Armed Forces and veterans have earned the right hand across my heart salutes are not aware of remain... They were kids that standing at attention will usually be asked to for! With the right hand over heart was for pledge of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc when!
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